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I just spoke to Wes Jones at Wesbond corp. They are a maker of rigidizers that major companies buy from. They make both colloidal silica and alumina.

He told me that colloidal alumina seems like a much better material to be rigidizing boards with, for several reasons. The silica turns to crystabolite when heated and crystabolite is the dangerous stuff. Alumina is the basic ingredient in seperator so using alumina instead of silica results in a surface that does not have to be kiln washed. Eventually you do need to recoat with the alumina. Colloidal alumina is a win/win relative to using colloidal silica.

They sell Wesolock D as a powdered colloidal alumina. Right now they charge $2 per pound and the smallest package is a 20 lb. carton. You mix it with water as a 30% solution so 20 lb makes roughly 6 gallons of rigidizer. The material is not sensitive to freezing like colloidal silica is.

[/url]http://www.wesbond.com/wesolok_db.htm
I love it when I find the source manu ... work fine.

This sound really interesting Bert,
I'm wondering whether this stuff will work as a binder for fibre mold forming as well as boards?
Thanks for passing on the info
Michael

I believe that it will work on fiber as well as board. He explained to me that the alumina travels in to the interior of a board whereas the silica tends to remain on the surface. This could result in a denser and more stable mold than one made by rigidizing with silica.

THANKS BERT,,,,,,,,,,,,,great tip

rodney

Thanks for the tip Bert. Do you know if you could you use it on a fiber shelf that is already rigidized with silica? I have a magnaform shelf that is a Unifrax product and it came already rigidized. I am assuming it was treated with silica. It sticks like nobody's business (even with good new coats of kiln wash). I would like to keep the fiber shelf, but eliminate the need for paper...


Otherwise I'm going back to mullite shelves.

Bert:
This is a question we have batted back and forth so much at our studio...I really appreciate you sharing this new info.

Thanks, a lot.

Carla

Cynthia wrote:Thanks for the tip Bert. Do you know if you could you use it on a fiber shelf that is already rigidized with silica? I have a magnaform shelf that is a Unifrax product and it came already rigidized. I am assuming it was treated with silica. It sticks like nobody's business (even with good new coats of kiln wash). I would like to keep the fiber shelf, but eliminate the need for paper...


Otherwise I'm going back to mullite shelves.

Cynthia

Follow the link and give Wesbond a call. I'm sure that they would have a clue about how they interact, as they make both products.

Bert Weiss wrote:I just spoke to Wes Jones at Wesbond corp. They are a maker of rigidizers that major companies buy from. They make both colloidal silica and alumina.

He told me that colloidal alumina seems like a much better material to be rigidizing boards with, for several reasons. The silica turns to crystabolite when heated and crystabolite is the dangerous stuff. Alumina is the basic ingredient in seperator so using alumina instead of silica results in a surface that does not have to be kiln washed. Eventually you do need to recoat with the alumina. Colloidal alumina is a win/win relative to using colloidal silica.

They sell Wesolock D as a powdered colloidal alumina. Right now they charge $2 per pound and the smallest package is a 20 lb. carton. You mix it with water as a 30% solution so 20 lb makes roughly 6 gallons of rigidizer. The material is not sensitive to freezing like colloidal silica is.

[/url]http://www.wesbond.com/wesolok_db.htm
I love it when I find the source manu ... work fine.

Yo Bert

Sounds good

But I thought a colliod was some stuff u only got as as solution

As far as I know u cant get collidal silica as a powder

There was some about using colloidal alumina as part of a glass furnace construction over craftweb

Does colloidal alumina separate out after mixing ??

Anyway if it works sounds realy good

Brian

Brian

.[/url][/quote]

Yo Bert

Sounds good

But I thought a colliod was some stuff u only got as as solution

As far as I know u cant get collidal silica as a powder

There was some about using colloidal alumina as part of a glass furnace construction over craftweb

Does colloidal alumina separate out after mixing ??



Anyway if it works sounds realy good


Brian[/quote]

Here is some stuff from my top secret private archives

AUTHOR: Jim Murphy
DATE: Saturday, 21 December 2002 at 11:37

Reply To: (#78311) Re: 'Q' colloidal silica...'Q'
Author: OT Brian + Jenn
Date: Saturday, 21 December 2002 at 05:27

Colloidal Silica is an aqueous dispersion of discrete particles of amorphous
silica. The silica particles have a negative surface charge which causes the
particles to repel one another, resulting in a stable silica solution. (Source
= Ceramic Industry 2002 Materials Handbook)

So, the real key is the use of amorphous silica.

Jim Murphy

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I thought I had more stuff on colloids but I cant find it

But I got this on Cheetin technology

If using this new stuff U may get away without the bat wash

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

: Do you mean that I should use rigidizer on the fiber
: board? If so, do I prefire the binder out, then use
: rigidizer on the fiber board, then kiln wash it...AND
: The glass wont stick to the board and tear it up...AND
: it won't warp?

: If so, You are my knight in shining armour. If not, I
: still like you.

Dear Damsel In Distress

Ok I will explain the complex technolgy behind

Fiber, Dizer n Wash

The labs have been working on this day and night 4 many years combining much of the research from all the recent and old technology which they have developed or stolen

Some of the new discoveries were only a few days ago and have not yet been fully assessed 4 there cheetin rating

However As UR need is great here U go

This is what they came up with

This was using 10mm fibre board but I guess would work ok on thinfire and her buddies

Method unfired board

Colour rigidiser with food colour

Something that matches UR decor

Paint rigidizer on board

Allow 2 dry a little

Take care as it is very soggy n fragile

Paint with bat wash

U can do a few at once

Now put these on flat kiln shelf all together

Flat

No spacers Oh no no no

If they R warped put a shelf on top + weight

Leave overnight on say 100 c 200 f

When dry remove weight and fire till burn off

These R very stiff and can B used as kiln shelves 4 light stuff

I also use as part of my

Sceletal mould technology

Thin fire could B done just on kiln shelf

The rigidizer binds the fibres

MayB wash on top ??

Jerry if U R still with me

4 U

Fibre n Dizer tm

This is a little less complex

The above but no kiln wash

I prefer with wash but this may suit U

Try both

Dizer Boy
All the best
XXXXXXXXXXXX

Brian

Bert,

Sounds cool but a couple of questions, if Spectrum sticks at 1600 will Bullseye? What about lower temps like 1500, will they stick there too or not. It sounds like a dream for float work but if BE and Spectrum stick I'll still have to kiln wash but it sounds like a cheaper solution that working with colloidal silica.

Phil

I used colloidal alumina as a seperator on Zircar RS 100 board. I used this as a kiln shelf for a couple of years in my 20 x 40 kiln. I painted on the alumina each time I fired. I was using BE in those days and it didn't stick when I applied the colloidal alumina. The RS 100 board I had was 1/4" thick and very hard, dense, and smooth. The alumina left a little bit of texture. The Unifrax boards are more porous. It seems like it will sink in more.

Colloidal silica does only come as a liquid, and freezing will kill it. The colloidal alumina can be mixed with tap water (I asked). It requires some mixing help, but not a blender, a paddle will do.You can experiment with a 20 - 30% solution (by weight). Wes told me that thicker than 30% is difficult to apply. The alumina will still work after being thawed. I am guessing that the silica is dependent on the negative ion thing and can't simply be mixed up.

Brian and Jenny Blanthorn wrote: .Bat Wash
Brian

Brian,
I know I can be a little Batty at times, and I do like to get washed but I don't think that is what you were referring to as Bat Wash.. can you explain?

Phil Hoppes wrote:Bert,

Sounds cool but a couple of questions, if Spectrum sticks at 1600 will Bullseye? What about lower temps like 1500, will they stick there too or not. It sounds like a dream for float work but if BE and Spectrum stick I'll still have to kiln wash but it sounds like a cheaper solution that working with colloidal silica.

Phil

Phil

Cost is one factor. The bigger concern to me would be the ability to eliminate crystabolite from the workplace.

Our world wide research team will have to weigh in on just what works and what doesn't. Isn't Spectrum softer than BE in general? I'm guessing that there is some technique involved with the application of the material, relative to it's longevity and it's unstickability. I wouldn't take a single experience as the last word, whatever people discover.

Bat = kiln shelf. Wash = primer.

anyone interested in splitting a 20 lb box? I am in MA.

i ordered a 60 lb carton. the no crystabolite thing excites me. if it is anywhere as good as coloidal silica i know i will be happy. i will test and report back. rosanna

Stuart Clayman wrote:

Brian and Jenny Blanthorn wrote: .Bat Wash
Brian

Brian,
I know I can be a little Batty at times, and I do like to get washed but I don't think that is what you were referring to as Bat Wash.. can you explain?

Explain which bit ???

Brian

wow, what service! ordered last week, got an e mail this am saying shipped fri, invoice in the mail. weird to get something shipped without pre pay. rosanna

Wesbond is a father-son business, both named Wes, both incredibly knowledgable on what they make. They are a joy to deal with.

Their products are just outstanding, I've used them for a few years now.

Thanks for the info Bert. We just finished our large kiln today and were just at last step , getting ready to apply the riidizer when I ran across this info.
We are planning to order it tomarrow.
Once it is applied can we then fire directly on the HD Board/kiln floor ? Or would I need to use a kiln wash thin fire paer , etc. ?