Had a very interesting day today. I went to meet with a potential client about some fused dinnerware. Let me preface this with the potential client is also an attorney. Anyway, I bring in my portfolio and we sit down and discuss what he likes and dislikes, what I can do and what he would be interested in seeing as a final item. I tell him a number of possibilities and said that I would be willing to make two smaller prototypes to give him an idea. Overall the session went quite well, and for me, quite exciting and enlightening. That being said, at one point he makes a comment about a contract and getting royalties on the final design. I'm not sure if this was in jest or if he is serious. He certainly has an input in what he wants the design to look like but as far as I'm concerned ownership of the design is mine.
A little more insite, if he likes the final work, this will be a place-setting for 8 which all totaled is quite a big order for me. That being said, if he insists on "owning" the design, I will walk. Nicely, but I'll walk.
I'd be interested in if others on this board have had any similar experiences and their thoughts in general on this topic. It's a bit of a tangent on the Tony Smith thread that has been quite active but that thread discussed more techniques between artists, not working with a client to produce what I would consider to be a commissioned piece.
Tnx,
Phil
Who own's it...ok, I do but ...
Moderators: Brad Walker, Tony Smith
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Phil Hoppes
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Tony Smith
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Phil,
As a sandblaster, I'm used to having commission works of "one of a kind" pieces. And as far as I'm concerned, they can have the design. I mean, who else will want a plate that says
Happy 50th Anniversary
Rose & Phil
April 31, 1953 - April 31, 2003
As far as fused glass though, I'm not sure... I think if he wants exclusive use, then the exclusivity has to be clearly defined... how much does the next piece of glass have to change so that it isn't "the same" as what he bought. Or what if he's a "all glass looks the same" kinda guy? Maybe the key here is to not deal with lawyers... maybe shakespeare was right...
Tony
As a sandblaster, I'm used to having commission works of "one of a kind" pieces. And as far as I'm concerned, they can have the design. I mean, who else will want a plate that says
Happy 50th Anniversary
Rose & Phil
April 31, 1953 - April 31, 2003
As far as fused glass though, I'm not sure... I think if he wants exclusive use, then the exclusivity has to be clearly defined... how much does the next piece of glass have to change so that it isn't "the same" as what he bought. Or what if he's a "all glass looks the same" kinda guy? Maybe the key here is to not deal with lawyers... maybe shakespeare was right...
Tony
The tightrope between being strange and being creative is too narrow to walk without occasionally landing on both sides..." Scott Berkun
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Jackie Beckman
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Gee Phil,
Maybe you should tell him to just draw something up, of course not based on your discussed designs in anyway, and you'll give him a quote based on that. Then if he would like a consultation with you for design assistance, you bill out at $150 and hour. I'm sure he'll understand that. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he sends you a bill for the meeting today!!
If he wasn't joking around - Don't do it
Maybe you should tell him to just draw something up, of course not based on your discussed designs in anyway, and you'll give him a quote based on that. Then if he would like a consultation with you for design assistance, you bill out at $150 and hour. I'm sure he'll understand that. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he sends you a bill for the meeting today!!
If he wasn't joking around - Don't do it
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Phil Hoppes
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Like architecture, like software....lots of examples for no
I kind of look at it like when you get a custom or semi-custom home. You go to an architect and say I like this design but flip the bedroom and paint the living room green. That does not give you ownership of the design. In high tech you go to a software contractor and 9 times out of 10 if you want a job done they will do it but they own the software not you. You own a license to use the software. Deals are done where the purchaser can own the software but typically at a very increased price since in delivering ownership that code and/or its derivatives is essentially taken off the market as a product for the developer. Yea, like you mention Tony if it had something like his name on it, who would want it, but this is not the case. This is a simple derivative of a base design that I plan on selling a lot of to lots of people hopfully. My design, not his. If he wants a few multicolored stripes in it, OK. But still my design I think.
Phil
PS - No bill from him yet Jackie....I'll have to wait and see.....
Phil
PS - No bill from him yet Jackie....I'll have to wait and see.....
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Bert Weiss
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Phil
In the contract world, you can contract for anything. You can stipulate that he owns it or you own it or that you pay him a royalty if you reproduce it in the future or that you own it. Whatever you want to put in that contract.
If he wants to own the design that should cost him more. If he doesn't like that, you could say that he receives no monetary compensation if the design is reproduced but he gets credit for being a codesigner.
Being explicitly clear about these points in a contract can only be a good thing. You will both know where you stand.
At any rate, you can decide on any approach that works for both parties.
With no written contract, the designer holds the copyright. Mostly this is a bullshit law because if somebody decides to steal your copyright, they have the upper hand. You have to take them to court which is expensive. You can win the case and lose the war.
In the contract world, you can contract for anything. You can stipulate that he owns it or you own it or that you pay him a royalty if you reproduce it in the future or that you own it. Whatever you want to put in that contract.
If he wants to own the design that should cost him more. If he doesn't like that, you could say that he receives no monetary compensation if the design is reproduced but he gets credit for being a codesigner.
Being explicitly clear about these points in a contract can only be a good thing. You will both know where you stand.
At any rate, you can decide on any approach that works for both parties.
With no written contract, the designer holds the copyright. Mostly this is a bullshit law because if somebody decides to steal your copyright, they have the upper hand. You have to take them to court which is expensive. You can win the case and lose the war.
Bert
Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Bert Weiss Art Glass*
http://www.customartglass.com
Furniture Lighting Sculpture Tableware
Architectural Commissions
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Brian and Jenny Blanthorn
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Re: Who own's it...ok, I do but ...
Interesting one thisPhil Hoppes wrote:Had a very interesting day today. I went to meet with a potential client about some fused dinnerware. Let me preface this with the potential client is also an attorney. Anyway, I bring in my portfolio and we sit down and discuss what he likes and dislikes, what I can do and what he would be interested in seeing as a final item. I tell him a number of possibilities and said that I would be willing to make two smaller prototypes to give him an idea. Overall the session went quite well, and for me, quite exciting and enlightening. That being said, at one point he makes a comment about a contract and getting royalties on the final design. I'm not sure if this was in jest or if he is serious. He certainly has an input in what he wants the design to look like but as far as I'm concerned ownership of the design is mine.
A little more insite, if he likes the final work, this will be a place-setting for 8 which all totaled is quite a big order for me. That being said, if he insists on "owning" the design, I will walk. Nicely, but I'll walk.
I'd be interested in if others on this board have had any similar experiences and their thoughts in general on this topic. It's a bit of a tangent on the Tony Smith thread that has been quite active but that thread discussed more techniques between artists, not working with a client to produce what I would consider to be a commissioned piece.
Tnx,
Phil
And not very clear who does what
He adds a spot 2 ur design - it is still ur design
U add a spot 2 his design - its his design
I think that if he wants an exclusive design he should pay extra
Also he is hiring U 2 assist in the technical stuff also extra
Sounds like he wants a cheep job and make cash from his design which U helped in the technicalities but did not get paid 4
Any consultations from now on should B paid 4
Any design work is also extra
Personal I would charge him a lot as hassle factor
As 4 design ownership remember he is the layer UR not
So I guess he will C any slight change as his new design
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Tony Smith
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I think the problem here Phil, is that he isn't commissioning the design. If he went to a graphic designer and commissioned a design, then gave it to you to manufacture in glass, he would have the rights to the design and a portion of profits from future sales, etc... But since you are offering him a derivative work, based on a current piece that you already manufacture or have designed, I don't think he should have any rights to it... JMHO
Jack up the price... "Oh did I say $200 per plate? I meant $2000 per plate. Yeah, I can do that..."
Tony
Jack up the price... "Oh did I say $200 per plate? I meant $2000 per plate. Yeah, I can do that..."
Tony
The tightrope between being strange and being creative is too narrow to walk without occasionally landing on both sides..." Scott Berkun
I was in a similar situation when desiging my T shirts. I found an artist I liked (who made similar shirts), we emailed back and forth on the design, then she made the shirts. My sole contribution was details that were needed to make the fish look like Koi, and approving the design.
At the end I asked how much it would cost for the Exclusive rights (should have asked first). They wanted $1000 based on the hours put in. SO I basically got the Use rights, t-shirts, business cards, etc, but they can use the design minus my company name.
Works out for me.
I would take a similar tack with the client. Keep track of your design and development hours. Bill it out at your mnhr rate ( overhead + wages+profit) . Tell the client that if they want the design, that the design costs will give them the design . Same as if they went to a graphic designer and brought you the drawing.
There is a similar thing in Landscape. I charge for a drawing or consultation. If you buy the installation I credit that towards the job. If you get someone else, you still pay for MY work.
Greg
At the end I asked how much it would cost for the Exclusive rights (should have asked first). They wanted $1000 based on the hours put in. SO I basically got the Use rights, t-shirts, business cards, etc, but they can use the design minus my company name.
Works out for me.
I would take a similar tack with the client. Keep track of your design and development hours. Bill it out at your mnhr rate ( overhead + wages+profit) . Tell the client that if they want the design, that the design costs will give them the design . Same as if they went to a graphic designer and brought you the drawing.
There is a similar thing in Landscape. I charge for a drawing or consultation. If you buy the installation I credit that towards the job. If you get someone else, you still pay for MY work.
Greg
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John Kurman
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Re: ownership
I'd charge the lawyer lawyer's fees for design consulation: $400-$500 for a consutation, regarless of whether it's ten minutes or an hour. Otherwise, if he is serious, I'd tell him to find another patsy.
I had a similar situation in which I wanted to make a casting of a friend of min's hand. He has three amputated fingers, and it makes for an "interesting", if grisly, hand.
After I made the mold, he mentioned getting royalties if I sold the piece. Huh? I told him the only "cut" he would get is the one he already had - his missing fingers. I mean, did he intentionally lose the fingers just so I could make a mold of them? He insisted, so I said, fine, then I'll destroy the mold, and we are even-steven. Long story short, his wife made a wax candle of his mangled hand, and I kept the mold.
I had a similar situation in which I wanted to make a casting of a friend of min's hand. He has three amputated fingers, and it makes for an "interesting", if grisly, hand.
After I made the mold, he mentioned getting royalties if I sold the piece. Huh? I told him the only "cut" he would get is the one he already had - his missing fingers. I mean, did he intentionally lose the fingers just so I could make a mold of them? He insisted, so I said, fine, then I'll destroy the mold, and we are even-steven. Long story short, his wife made a wax candle of his mangled hand, and I kept the mold.
Don't go any further until you get it straight with this guy. You could end up with a nice design suitable for other uses and not have the ability to use it.
You can to the U.S. Copyright website and read a little about "work for hire" "collaborative design" and "derivative design".
http://www.loc.gov/copyright
What do you think about trusting your instincts? If you are asking the question, maybe you already know the answer. Wishful thinking will not solve the problem. The amount of time you spend dicking around with this guy could turn this job into a money loser unless you charge by the minute.
Let him know the first consultation was free, but if he wants to continue the consulting fees are $150/hr.
Respect yourself first. If he doesn't get it, move on.
You can to the U.S. Copyright website and read a little about "work for hire" "collaborative design" and "derivative design".
http://www.loc.gov/copyright
What do you think about trusting your instincts? If you are asking the question, maybe you already know the answer. Wishful thinking will not solve the problem. The amount of time you spend dicking around with this guy could turn this job into a money loser unless you charge by the minute.
Let him know the first consultation was free, but if he wants to continue the consulting fees are $150/hr.
Respect yourself first. If he doesn't get it, move on.
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Phil Hoppes
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The little bell is ringing like crazy in my head.....
Lots of good feedback and I really appreciate it. The alarm bells just went off in my head when I left this guy yesterday. I don't like the tone of that comment so I will politely call him today before I spend any more effort on this one. I want to make sales but not at the expense of the path that he is potentially leading me down. I may look stupid but I don't have to be stupid.
Keep you posted......news at 11:00
Tnx to all.
Phil
Keep you posted......news at 11:00
Tnx to all.
Phil
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Tom Fuhrman
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I was at a presentation a couple of years ago by the Tenn. Arts Commission and the talk was given by L.Lee Wilson an attorney who has published books on this subject. She has a binder entitled Legal handbook for the Individual Artist available from July Publications, P.O. Box 121075 Nashville, Tn. 37212. 615-746-4502, She has lots of experience in the song writing and publishing industry as well as the visual arts. This covers all things such as how to get a copyright, copyright infringement, protecting your ideas, trademarks, etc. Also a sections on lawyers and how to find the right one and how to manage the lawyers. She was a very dynamic and knowledgeable person with a lot of savy about the arts. There is also an organization VLA, Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts. 212-319-2787, 1 East 53rd St, 6th Floor, N.Y.,N.Y. 10022, Lee offers a free 15 min. consultaion to any Tenn. artist for free. , not that's a rare thing in the law business. hope this info might help some of you! Tenn. Tom
ask him if he gets royalties from the person who painted his pictures on the wall. 
on the custom houses, having just built one, i can tell you that yes, I did the design work, and yes, I own the design. i commissioned someone to draw up plans from my design, but he doesn't own the design. if i wanted to resell the design or a copy of the plans, i can do so.
semi-custom homes are ones where the builder allows you to move/delete/add certain things in the house and get to pick out a lot of the interior objects, but usually the outside walls and shape/size of the pad don't change. this is because they have plans submitted to various agencies, and it's a lot easier/cheaper for them to slightly modify them without having to run them past the architect/structural engineer/etc again.
on the custom houses, having just built one, i can tell you that yes, I did the design work, and yes, I own the design. i commissioned someone to draw up plans from my design, but he doesn't own the design. if i wanted to resell the design or a copy of the plans, i can do so.
semi-custom homes are ones where the builder allows you to move/delete/add certain things in the house and get to pick out a lot of the interior objects, but usually the outside walls and shape/size of the pad don't change. this is because they have plans submitted to various agencies, and it's a lot easier/cheaper for them to slightly modify them without having to run them past the architect/structural engineer/etc again.
Oh just another small note about commisions, especially if this client is serious.
Make sure to define and acceptable RANGE. Even if you're really good, there may be some difference in the pieces. You/and they need to know that. And price wise, if nothing short of perfect is acceptable, then you need to build in error costs to the price. esp if you can't sell them elsewhere.
In the best light, this client want to brag that no one else has these plates. That's understandable, he's paying a lot for that priveledge. But if he limits you, then he has to pay more.
Greg
Make sure to define and acceptable RANGE. Even if you're really good, there may be some difference in the pieces. You/and they need to know that. And price wise, if nothing short of perfect is acceptable, then you need to build in error costs to the price. esp if you can't sell them elsewhere.
In the best light, this client want to brag that no one else has these plates. That's understandable, he's paying a lot for that priveledge. But if he limits you, then he has to pay more.
Greg
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Carla
I'm speaking from my experience in Oregon. I don't know how many other states have similar laws.
You own the design, he owns the dinner ware. He may not use your design for other things....without permission. You may use the designs whenever you want.
I think this also applies to graphic art. I once did some sewn pillows for a bank brochere. They paid me for a one time use to photograph them only. After that the pillows had to be returned...I also stitched up a credit card quilt. They photoed and used it, the second time they wanted to use it I was paid again.
In Oregon we have a lawyer, Lenard DuBoff who has written the book "The Law in Plain English for CraftsPeople." He probably addresses this very issue in his book. If you need more info on the book, or a phone number on Leonard DuBoff let me know. I know many artists use him as an attorney....his law business specializes in art law. He has written and had passed many pro-artist laws in Oregon. He's very well respected nationally and gives art law talks at many art gatherings.
Hope this is helpful.
Carla
foxon@bendnet.com
PS: Maybe what he was really asking was: "I want these plates to be special to me and no one else to have any similar ones. I want the have my own set of special plates to wow my friends and I don't want to see them in someone else's house." In this case I'm sure you can reassure him his plates are one of a kinds and he won't see them mass produced etc.....maybe?????
You own the design, he owns the dinner ware. He may not use your design for other things....without permission. You may use the designs whenever you want.
I think this also applies to graphic art. I once did some sewn pillows for a bank brochere. They paid me for a one time use to photograph them only. After that the pillows had to be returned...I also stitched up a credit card quilt. They photoed and used it, the second time they wanted to use it I was paid again.
In Oregon we have a lawyer, Lenard DuBoff who has written the book "The Law in Plain English for CraftsPeople." He probably addresses this very issue in his book. If you need more info on the book, or a phone number on Leonard DuBoff let me know. I know many artists use him as an attorney....his law business specializes in art law. He has written and had passed many pro-artist laws in Oregon. He's very well respected nationally and gives art law talks at many art gatherings.
Hope this is helpful.
Carla
foxon@bendnet.com
PS: Maybe what he was really asking was: "I want these plates to be special to me and no one else to have any similar ones. I want the have my own set of special plates to wow my friends and I don't want to see them in someone else's house." In this case I'm sure you can reassure him his plates are one of a kinds and he won't see them mass produced etc.....maybe?????
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Phil Hoppes
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- Location: Overgaard, AZ
And now for today's news........
Flash......Crafty lawyer/mortgage broker pulls emerging glass artist leg. He buys it hook, line and sinker.
Phil Hoppes was quoted as saying "This has been a good experience for me. I wasn't sure so I did some checking with some very good people I know on the web. It made me think of a lot of things I knew at some time I'd have to consider with respect to running my business but didn't figure I'd run into it so soon."
LOTS of good feedback on this thread as well as contact information, resources and so on. Dang, I love this board. I'd figure it out some time but lessons learn and passed on are priceless. I downloaded a bunch of stuff from the US copyright web page, I'll get L.Lee Wilson's binder and Lenard's book and keep him in mind if I need some representation.
Now, if I can just figure out how to get this hook out of my mouth......
Phil
Phil Hoppes was quoted as saying "This has been a good experience for me. I wasn't sure so I did some checking with some very good people I know on the web. It made me think of a lot of things I knew at some time I'd have to consider with respect to running my business but didn't figure I'd run into it so soon."
LOTS of good feedback on this thread as well as contact information, resources and so on. Dang, I love this board. I'd figure it out some time but lessons learn and passed on are priceless. I downloaded a bunch of stuff from the US copyright web page, I'll get L.Lee Wilson's binder and Lenard's book and keep him in mind if I need some representation.
Now, if I can just figure out how to get this hook out of my mouth......
Phil
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Barbara Muth
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Who owns it?
I am a Fine Artist that has gone into fusing. As an Artist, all works created by an artist, by law any tangible item, or idea is yours, you own the design copyrights. I would think as a Lawyer he or she would know this info. I would never sign over my rights to anyone as for as my copyrights unless you are signing a contract that allows you royalties on any items that can be reproduced in any form and you can stipulate for how long they may use your design and how they use your designs.
Glass is a tangible item, so are the sketches you may make for the client and they are copyrighted by law if you are the artist. Even commissioned art is by law the artist's copyright, and contracts can and must be used to protect your art in any tangible form. Be sure to check books on copyrights.
I am a stickler for copyrights.
Glass is a tangible item, so are the sketches you may make for the client and they are copyrighted by law if you are the artist. Even commissioned art is by law the artist's copyright, and contracts can and must be used to protect your art in any tangible form. Be sure to check books on copyrights.
I am a stickler for copyrights.